Re: We don't need evangelism, we need democracy(was Re: [MacPerl] macCPAN)

[Chris Nandor <pudge@pobox.com>]

At 03.46 -0500 1998.12.26, robinmcf@altern.org wrote:
>If you look at the progression of this thread the topic reflects the way
>people are responding to the arguments brought forward. We're now using the
>topic: MacCPAN which kind of turns full circle to what I meant in a
>previous post about relegating the MacOS to the realms of 'hobbyist'.
>
>We are doing this ourselves.

Well, until Mac OS can fully support Unixisms, I think that is what we are
stuck with.

And if you think that puts MacPerl into the realm of hobbies, then you are
misinformed.  It makes MacPerl different in some ways.  Is Win32 for
hobbyists?  AS/400?  VMS?  These and more all require significantly
different Stuff to get perl and related technologies to work.


>I also lurk comp.lang.perl.misc where I see some of the names that
>frequently post here appearing. In the same forum platform specific issues
>are often mentioned to do with running perl on win*/NT or linux or UNIX,
>but not Mac.
>
>I don't see why MacPerl isn't part of misc perl

Two reasons.

1.  comp.lang.perl.misc sucks rocks.

2.  Because most MacPerl users on this list, those who have voiced opinions
on the matter like mailing lists better than Usenet for, at least, the
purpose of discussing MacPerl.


>If the process for putting modules on CPAN is so awkward why are there so
>many platform specific modules for non Unix OS's?

I believe Mac OS has more platform-specific modules than any other
platform, save Win32.  But I don't see why this is relevant.


>I think the key here is there are so many win/NT users that even if the
>Unix purists don't like it they are forced into accepting the existence
>there of, and _THIS_ is what we should _all_ be doing.

Kinda agreed, with caveats.


>For whatever it is, MacPerl is part of Perl and we, and by this I mean all
>the members of the list should be doing something about it. If you can't do
>modules or testing make your presence felt in the _OTHER_ forums. We keep
>thinking in terms of having to marginalise ourselves when we should be
>forcing ourselves to be commonly accepted. So by all means let's deal with
>whatever is necessary to eliminate certain grey areas caused by platform
>specifics, but lets step up the pressure to get acceptance for certain
>aspects of the platform spec _accepted_ by the PERL community as a whole -
>including those who develop modules which are supposed to be _pure Perl_.

That is being done.  perlport.  CPAN Testers.  Perl 5.005 accepts any
newline character for Perl programs.  p5p is very open to discussing how to
make things work better on all platforms, including Mac OS.

But it is not acceptable to break things significantly to make them work on
a minor platform.  I would not support, for instance, completely redoing
CPAN just so it can work better with MacPerl.  That is unacceptable to me,
and to most others.


>It isn't hard to document the differences and pit falls (like forks, back
>ticks, system calls), but if we keep pushing ourselves into corners then
>we'll be the only ones to know about them - I suggest compiling a FAQ to be
>put into the various comp.lang.perl.* _solely_ for developers and creating
>merry hell for any of the developers who don't use it. This way we can get
>numbers behind us, because I'm sure there are win/NT/Linux platform
>specifics which could be included and thereby guaranteeing  enough of a
>concensous to force the FAQ to be used. Not preaching to the converted
>isn't called Evangelism it's called democracy

Heh.  You have NOT seen perlport.pod, then, I guess.

    http://pudge.net/macperl/perlport.pod
    http://pudge.net/macperl/perlport.html

This document is on CPAN and is also distributed with perl5.005 and later.
In fact, I do think that this document is one of the reasons why p5p is
more open to Making Things Work on other platforms.  They can see and know
where the inconsistencies and problems are.

--
Chris Nandor          mailto:pudge@pobox.com         http://pudge.net/
%PGPKey = ('B76E72AD', [1024, '0824090B CE73CA10  1FF77F13 8180B6B6'])

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