Gail, I recently started working through the llama book (Learning Perl), and was going to move on to the Camel book (Programming Perl) after that. I would be really interested in working through these with other people, so if you or anyone else wants to work through these books as a group, drop me a note off the list. It seems to me learning is better done in groups. I know a little C, less MacToolbox, and even less Apple Script. Comfortable with math but severely lacking in formal course work in anything. Mark Howard