Re: [MacPerl] OSA Extention for PERL

[Matthias Ulrich Neeracher <neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch>]

Strider <Strider@clarityconnect.com> writes:
>>pudge@pobox.com (Chris Nandor) writes:
>>>At 11.13 8/8/97, Strider wrote:
>>>>Awhile back, a MacPERL OSA extention was released. If it worked (which it
>>>>generally doesn't =) it would allow the Script Editor to edit PERL scripts
>>>>(yipee) and (if I understand correctly) allow PERL scripts to be accessed
>>>>as standalones like Applescript Standalones and droplets.
>>
>>"Standalone" if you drop an 1.5M component into your system folder.
>
>Granted, but it sounds less daunting. Frankly, I'm thinking of my bosses
>here. If I said 'just use this extention that doesn't conflict with
>anything' they'd say sure. But when I tried to get them to put MacPerl on
>our server, it was "memory, conflicts, and space" all the time. They just
>wouldn't think that way about a no-hassle or setup extention. I think that
>they're not alone, either.

Excuse me, but your bosses have it exactly backwards (being bosses, one would
expect them to have it backwards, of course :-) The application does *not*
install anything dangerous into the system folder; it does *not* cause
conflicts when it's not running and it does *not* take memory unless launched.

The OSA component installs an 1.5M chunk of code into the system folder.

>> I just lost interest in the current OSA component when it became evident
>> what sort of amemory consumption and startup time it had.

>Well, if it helps any, there ARE others (ok, other =) who'd be interested
>in it still

Oh, I know that there's *consumer* interest in it :-) The sources are available
(or I will make them available to any interested persons), so you're free to
translate that into *producer* interest.

>>>>It would also be extremely advantageous for web site developers, because
>>>>the software would be loaded as part of the system- it would be even
>>>>faster, and require less RAM (at least, I think it probably would =)
>>
>>The MacPerl application represents a negligible portion of the code size and
>>memory consumption.
>
>Again, I'm thinking more of my superiors- an extention is much cleaner and
>nicer sounding- the way PERL is (I think) supposed to be: you install it
>(on linux, anyway) and it's out of the way- you use it to run scripts, and
>that's it. No need for a built in editor, etc.

MacPerl cannot really do without a console. Throwing out the editor would be
easy, but hardly an earth shattering UI improvement.

>>>>One of the most major setbacks of macintosh-based perl is that scripts
>>>>can't just be distributed, like they can in UNIX.
>>
>>As a commercial UNIX developer, I can assure you that many companies can *not
*
>>"just distribute" perl scripts. Perl is *not* guaranteed to be available, and
>>an UN*X Perl installation is harder than a MacPerl installation.
>
>True- but in that aspect, I'm NOT thinking about my bosses. It'd be nice to
>be able to post, say, a socket program on the net, and be able to assume
>that everyone had it. And if they didn't, they'd think "oh, just an
>extention- that's ok".

I still don't udnerstand how you could possibly think that installing something
into the system folder makes it more harmless.

>Really, and I know this is no basis for writing a program, it's a matter of
>preconcieved notions. Extentions are small and fast and painless.

That's why I had to spend 3 years on this list to explain to people that their
version of "Click, there it is!" was broken, that a new version had been out
for years, and that it was not MacPerl's fault.

Extensions, in general, are anything but painless. On PowerPC's, an 68K only
extension may severely slow down the entire system. And extensions are not
inherently small.

OSA extensions are a lot more harmless, as they don;t activate themselves
automatically. However, if you attach a Perl script to a cute little
application and the MacPerl OSA component suddenly sucks up 2M of memory
in that application's heap, I will *not* hve made new friends.

>Applications, especially with library files

The OSA extension does not get around the need for a MacPerl library. It just
makes library issues a lot messier (because you can't use DynaLoader).

>, are large and bulky and
>difficult, ESPECIALLY if you don't need the editing, and you're just using
>them to run one or two apps or scripts- it just wouldn't be worth it for
>most people.

I think I understand your feelings, but for the n-th time, TURNING Perl INTO AN
OSA LANGUAGE DOESN'T SHRINK IT TO THE SIZE OF APPLESCRIPT OR FRONTIER. Perl is
a large language. There is no way to make it smaller. The only way is to wait
for a system with improved memory and process management, where the size is not
as noticeable.

Matthias

-----
Matthias Neeracher   <neeri@iis.ee.ethz.ch>   http://www.iis.ee.ethz.ch/~neeri
  "Have you considered that if you take the list of things you assume and
   invert it you would get a far more useful set of assumptions?"
                                     -- Richard Caley


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